I know there are a tons of these but I would like real world experience from the shooters[M2]. Anyway, what VFG do you have and why? Im looking at some and the prices vary between $20-$150...what makes one more expensive besides material. TIA
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I know there are a tons of these but I would like real world experience from the shooters[M2]. Anyway, what VFG do you have and why? Im looking at some and the prices vary between $20-$150...what makes one more expensive besides material. TIA
There are a lot of them and some of the cost is for the name. First ask your self if you really need/want one. They have there place, but I have more “real word experience” without one then I do with one, and I can take it or leave it. See if you can use one first to see if like them. If you are running lights and other cool stuff with pressure switches, then look at the ones that have the inserts. The grip pod type are great little bipods that are out of the way when not needed.
Bottom line, get the one you like the most that does what you want it to do.
I run a $20.00 one on one weapon, and a pod on another. The one thing that I learned the hard way, NO ALUMINUM! In the cold your hand pay for it, frost bite is not your friend.
I got the Spike's combination VFG shown here: http://www.spikestactical.com/z/inde...roducts_id=283
I got it just on a whim to see if I would like a VFG on my AR and I was pleasantly surprised at how comfortable and convenient it was. I recommend it for a basic VFG that will do it's job well and provide a comfortable and solid hand hold on your weapon.
I'm not going to re-invent the wheel here.. one of our own posted a really great explanation on another site - www.lightfighter.net http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a...073#3591099073 - Hope Jeff (USMC03) doesn't mind my reposting his well thought out response to basically the same question.
"Guns, tactics, and techniques much like vehicles, medicine, and electronics are constantly evolving.
And through evolution we often end up at the same place we started.
I started carrying a gun professionally in August of 1990. At the time we grabbed the handguard in which ever fashion was most comfortable for the shooter. And we stood in a bladed stance. After 18 years, I'm almost back to that same place (not bladed and not squared off to the target).
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I am constantly learning. Everytime I shoot a match, take a training class, do a mission at work, I learn something new. Sometimes when we learn something (at work, training, a match), that "something new" is staring us in the face, but because it doesn't make sense, or it's not cool, or we think it's dumb, or we don't want to change (or go back to where we began) we resist this "something new". Only for the enevadable to happen at a later date (we adopt "something new" as the way we "do things").
Skill, experience, personal preference, and how you will employ the rifle are all factors in what accessories do and do not work well for you.
For CQB missions I still like a vertical foregrip. But situations where I will be shooting with a magnified optic or a distance (with or without a magnified optic), I perfer not to use a vertical foregrip.
I shoot a monthly local match that is set up by a Sgt. and Capt. that work on the same Dept. as I do. Both men are exceptional shooters and compete nationally (3 gun). The target distance for these matches are from contact distance out to 425 yards with approximatley 75% of the targets being at 200 - 425 yards. I have been shooting these matches WITHOUT a vertical foregrip since early 2006 (with the exception of when I take one of my duty guns to a match to run it through it's paces).
The enviornment that I do a majority of my work in while on duty is quite different than the type of shooting I'm exposed to at a match. This is a good example of "how you will employ the rifle" will be a factor in what gear you prefer.
2008 was suppose to be a test bed year for me. The plan was to use a 16" Mid-Length AR15 with NO vertical foregrip for both duty and matches and a S&W M&P 9mm for both duty and matches for a complete year to see how I well the AR with no vertical foregrip worked for me in a CQB enviornment and how well the M&P worked for me (vs. the Glock I've been carrying for several years).
I sent off funds for both the rifle lower and pistols back in December (the upper has been built since late December). But I haven't received the lowers or pistol yet.
But there may be hope. Last week I received my Noveske Low Profile N4 (with a 10.0 rail). Today I went out and got it pretty close to being zeroed. Hopefully I can finish getting a good zero (at distance) on it tomarrow morning and shoot the monthly match with it. I'll get qualified at work in the next week or two and start carrying the gun at work (no vertical forgrip).
Here are a few different posts I have written in the last couple years in reference to vertical foregrips. Remember that some of this info may be up to a couple years old and I may currently be using different techniques. But I think most of the info is relevant, especially my feelings on not using a vertical foregrip:
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Posted below are a few posts that I wrote on this forum, and instead of re-writting it, I just copied and pasted.
Just my experiences:
VERTICAL FOREGRIPS:
I copied the following question and my reply from another post in reference to vertical foregrips:
(first written in mid / late 2007....and rewritten here a couple months ago)
quote:
Originally posted by In2Deep:
Jeff,
do you find any mechanical advantage in running your vfg further out, or do you have monkey arms?
My reply:
No monkey arms here, I'm only 5'06".
Running the vertical foregrip all the way forward on a carbine length rail system is not anything new and it's not anything I thought up myself.
Guys much higher speed than me have been suggesting that I move my vertical foregrip all the way forward since 2003 or 2004. I believe there was also a thread about this same subject in the CQB room.
I had tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward several times in the past and it just never "felt right" or was causing me some pain and discomfort due to an injured left shoulder.
In late May of last year, I tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward and everything finally "clicked". After several years and several attempts I finally figured out why there were so many advantages to having the vertical foregrip all the way forward.
Think of how things balance and piviot points and maybe the following will make some sense
I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear. Not a big issue when shooting in a CQB enviornment, but when engaging targets at further distances I have found this technique doesn't work well for me, and it's hard to keep the gun steady.
Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:
Think of your carbine like as if it were an old 1800's musket, you know the really long muskets, like the one that SneakySFDude carried in Basic. The stock is in your shoulder, and thus is supported at one end.
If you wanted the best control over the musket when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put your support hand? Would you want your support hand in close (near your firing hand), in the middle (dead center) of the musket, or as close as you could get it to the muzzle?
Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the muzzle as possible.
Here is an exercise to try to illistrate the point I'm trying to make. Pick several targets out in your area, and stagger the distance both from left to right and front to back (ie. target #1 - 50 yards, target #2 - 350 yards, target number #3 175 yards, target #4 25 yards, etc).
Now take the longest rifle you have avalible to you (it can be a hunting rifle, AR15A2, M1 Garand, etc....the longer the rifle the better) and put your support hand as close as you can to the firing hand and transition from targets 1 - 4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now move the support hand the middle of the gun (ie. as close to center as possible) and transition from targets 1-4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now, move the support hand as far out on the forend as possible and transition from targets 1-4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times.
I'm sure you will find that the further you get the hand out on the fore end the easier it is to control the gun, the quicker your transitions from one target to another, and when the support hand is in close you tend to "over shoot" your target but when it's further out, you can stop on a dime.
Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.
With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.
While at first having the vertical foregrip all the way forward feels ackward, I find that my support shoulder and arm doesn't fatigue as quickly and I can hold the gun up on target for longer periods of time.
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(first written in the summer of 2007)
I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear.
I have moved all of my vertical foregrips all the way to the front of the rail (closest to the front sight tower).
Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:
Think of your carbine like a board that is supported at one end. If you wanted the best control over the board when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put the support? Would you want it close to the end that is already supported, in the middle, or as close as you can get it to the unsupported end?
Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the end of the board that is not being supported as possible.
Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.
With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.
When I'm NOT using a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand around the handguard (like you would wrap your hand around any cylinder shaped object), with my index finger pointing in the same direction as the muzzle (resting on the 9 o'clock rail).
With my hand in this position I can provide constant rearward pressure into my shoulder. Having my hand in this position provides much more control and I can drive the gun much better and stop on a target without overshooting it and having to come back to it. I have noticed that when I have my hand closer to the delta ring that I can't stop the gun as quickly when transitioning from one target to another at medium to long distances and often over shoot or go past the target and have to come back to it.
Here is a visual of how I hold the gun without a vertical foregrip and can provide constant rearward pressure and have much better control:
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007...1_9146_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo.
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(first written in early 2006)
On another board, someone asked me why I don't use a vertical foregrip on my mid-lengths (w/ ACOGs) any more:
quote:
Did you dump your Vertical Fore Grip for the shoot (match) or altogether now Jeff?
Xxxxx,
After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.
On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards - 425 yards.
Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).
I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.
Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail) Example: demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/?small=D100_5707_img.jpg
On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.
On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.
Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary. [http://lightfighter.net/groupee_comm.../icon_wink.gif]
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I have found that I'm just as fast up close with no vertical foregrip as I am with a vertical foregrip. But I find I can "drive" the gun more effectively without the use of a vertical foregrip, using my index finger to point (as illistrated above).
I can't explain it, but some how your digits and your eyes are connected. Point at something with a finger or thumb and your eyes will naturally index on that item, or if you look at something a pointed finger will naturally index on that item.
Not using a vertical foregrip is only half of the equasion, the other half is how I grip the fore end (using my index finger to point). Using your index finger to point will help you drive the gun more efficiently and stop on a dime at will.
The only down side I have found to not using a vertical foregrip is I need a longer rail (9.0 or longer) due to the way that I hold the fore end.
This is what (through trial and error) I found works best for me. Use what works best for you and the enviornment in which you will deploy your carbine.
Semper Fi,
Jeff "
Interestingly, Magpul is releasing a new angled foregrip soon. It looks a bit odd to me but maybe it's useful and efficient, who knows, though I find the "sword grip" analogy awful forced and not terribly believable. I've not used any of them, so I don't claim to be any sort of expert. The article comments are pretty interesting too.
The MagPul product answers a need of you abide by the Chris Costa proffered style of gripping the forend of the rifle. I use a slightly modified version of that, but my grip and utilization of a VFG is still evolving. I don't see myself purchasing one of the MP products, but would try one if I came across it for free.