Form 4 in Adams County?

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You can have as many lawyers that you want to look it over, but in the end we all know that the ATF will do what they want, when they want.
Having a lawyer look it over does not guarantee anything, It helps, but it does not guarantee .

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Having a competent lawyer who is familiar with trusts and the ATF "look it over" means your estate and NFA items will be much better protected and that you won't be forming a trust that is basically meaningless. It also means that you can demonstrate to the ATF if they question what you are doing that you are taking the ownership of NFA items seriously and aren't just looking for a loophole to try and sneak through.

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Just like when the .22 akins accelerator was considered a bump firing device.

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The akins accelerator situation helps to illustrate the problem many of us want to avoid. The ATF can in fact change its mind (effectively changing the law) at will. I would like to avoid having them change their minds about how trusts and corporations are treated. I contend that drawing up trusts that you write yourself (because it worked for another guy) or that are written by some software program is a good way to encourage the ATF to change their minds.

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Originally Posted by sniper7

I just compared the one I built to a guy who paid $2500 for his and mine is pretty much the same.

Don't see the point in paying a lawyer to write up something I can do on my own.

I consulted two lawyer friends and they didn't know much about them...

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Yep just like the guy who knows nothing about a car except how to put gass in it, and how to drive it. He then puts his 10K honda civic next to a corvette and proclaims they are the same. After all they both have four wheels, a seat, and a steering wheel.

Oh and of course he will claim he saved 50K and has the same car............[Bang]

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Originally Posted by HunterCO

Yep just like the guy who knows nothing about a car except how to put gass in it, and how to drive it. He then puts his 10K honda civic next to a corvette and proclaims they are the same. After all they both have four wheels, a seat, and a steering wheel.

Oh and of course he will claim he saved 50K and has the same car............[Bang]

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Maybe that's the reason you wanted a lawyer?

I found it very easy to build a trust, and I have consulted lawyers and there isn't any around that would be competent...so what is the point of paying someone ridiculous money if they haven't more of a clue that I do?

If I compare mine to the one a guy paid $2500 for and they are worded the same other than names and dates, I don't see how this could be wrong.

The car story is a bit off this subject.

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I found it very easy to build a trust, and I have consulted lawyers and there isn't any around that would be competent...so what is the point of paying someone ridiculous money if they haven't more of a clue that I do?

If I compare mine to the one a guy paid $2500 for and they are worded the same other than names and dates, I don't see how this could be wrong.

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It is very easy to build a trust, how appropriate that trust is for your needs is another question.

You are correct that finding a lawyer who is knowledgeable of the NFA and able to create a trust that fits your needs (including using it to posess NFA items) is NOT easy. I talked to a lot of lawyers who said they didn't know anything about the NFA before I found one who does know about it. I have posted his name above and would recommend him to anyone looking to form a trust involving the NFA.

To compare the trust you made yourself to ONE other trust isn't really meaningful. I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers out there who will charge a lot of money for a trust that is a piece of crap. That doesn't mean that ALL lawyers will create a trust that is a piece of crap.

This situation is a classic case of you get what you pay for. HOWEVER, the potential impact of people writing their own trusts on the entire NFA community is real, and I would hope people will consider it when contemplating a trust for NFA items.

I understand what you are saying about the impact it could potentially have on the community, but the ATF is going to do what it wants to do either way. They might decide a sign-off is still necessary even with a trust.

As far as the lawyers go, what you just said is that it is basically a crapshoot if you are going to get a good trust and if the lawyer knows anything about NFA items.
How do you know the lawyer you have mentioned didn't google NFA trust info, find out the information on the net already out there and say he knows a lot about it and would gladly charge you $2500 to write one up?

I'm sure the trusts generated by Quicken Will Maker were reviewed by lawyers before Quicken put it on the market. In addition, there's probably been thousands of Trusts created with Will Maker and lots of them were used for NFA items. And finally, some people have compared the output of Will Maker ($39.00) with Trusts written by lawyers (several thousand dollars) with very minor differences.

If you want to spend a few thousand to get a lawyer to write one for you go right ahead. Are you under the impressioin that a Trust lawyer writes one up from scratch? I think it falls into the same category as accountants that use TurboTax to generate the forms for their clients (actually my accountant used a different program, but the point is he didn't do it from scratch).

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As far as the lawyers go, what you just said is that it is basically a crapshoot if you are going to get a good trust and if the lawyer knows anything about NFA items.

How do you know the lawyer you have mentioned didn't google NFA trust info, find out the information on the net already out there and say he knows a lot about it and would gladly charge you $2500 to write one up?

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It's not a crapshoot, as I do when hiring any professional I verified his qualifications before hiring him.

Lets not make this personal. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. A homemade trust is clearly sufficient to get the ATF to approve your forms. It MAY be sufficient for your personal estate planning needs. It MAY also contribute to the ATF tightening the rules in the future regarding trusts and corporations.

Arguing that your trust is somehow better or cheaper or whatever than mine is silly.

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Originally Posted by rtr

It's not a crapshoot, as I do when hiring any professional I verified his qualifications before hiring him.

Lets not make this personal. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. A homemade trust is clearly sufficient to get the ATF to approve your forms. It MAY be sufficient for your personal estate planning needs. It MAY also contribute to the ATF tightening the rules in the future regarding trusts and corporations.

Arguing that your trust is somehow better or cheaper or whatever than mine is silly.

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I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that in the end I will be able to get my NFA items just as you got yours. If they sign off on it and approve it, I will be glad I didn't spend a dime on the trust other than a notary signature instead of dropping 2.5K for a lawyer to build me one.

There is talk of an attorney in Loveland who will assist with creating a trust. I just used this guy and he is the bomb. If anyone is interested, I highly recommend this guy and can forward his information on.

i gave him my info at 2pm today and he had the trust created same day....

i actually made some calls and was advised by Darry's office that they will not sign off on the forms, hence the reason why I went with a trust.

4 year old thread