Colorado CCW Training Warning

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

While I do not necessarily agree with the way the law is written, the quickly growing number of irresponsible people does make me nervous. I required a 90 round shoot test after shooting about 200 at the range.

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[sarcasm]Well, quite frankly, the last thing I want is armed, nervous people running around loose in society. Nervous people shouldn't have guns...or they should be required to pass an "I'm not nervous any more" test before getting a gun.[/sarcasm]

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

Instructors who care about their students will include shooting while those who just care about making some $ as easy as possible won't.

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And instructors who think like that obviously have an elitist belief that:

• state law is fundamentally flawed (even though there's no evidence the requirements as they now stand are inadequate)
• some people have no God-given right to an adequate means of self-defense (due to physical or financial limitations that might prohibit them from acquiring/completing this type of training)
• bigger government is good
• big brother oversight is good
• most people can't be trusted
• only "we" are smart enough or talented enough to carry guns or train people how to carry guns

I don't have a problem with people getting voluntary training. I also believe it absolutely should not be any more difficult than it already is to get a permit. Despite how "nervous" you are with commoners with minimal training having guns , I seriously doubt you can provide evidence that it's a problem that needs correcting.

Wyoming is on the verge of becoming the third state to say a permit is not needed by a law-abiding person to carry a gun for defense. It's not rocket surgery.

I agree with some of you on your points. My summary:

1. Less government is always better
2. More personal responsibility
3. Guns in every household should be common like it was 100 to 200 yrs ago.
4. The 2nd amendment should be my CCW permit like AK and VT.
5. Those that carry open/conceal/illegally should take pride and responsibility and want to practice and take training even if its not from a formal certified source. THey should want to be as good as they can be with their weapon, be it; fist, knive, car, gun, bomb, etc. I don't really care.

Flame me if you want, thats my opinion and don't foresee it waivering through discussion/debate.

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Originally Posted by KFinn

I agree with some of you on your points. My summary:

1. Less government is always better
2. More personal responsibility
3. Guns in every household should be common like it was 100 to 200 yrs ago.
4. The 2nd amendment should be my CCW permit like AK and VT.
5. Those that carry open/conceal/illegally should take pride and responsibility and want to practice and take training even if its not from a formal certified source. THey should want to be as good as they can be with their weapon, be it; fist, knive, car, gun, bomb, etc. I don't really care.

Flame me if you want, thats my opinion and don't foresee it waivering through discussion/debate.

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Couldn't of said it better myself!

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Originally Posted by KFinn

I agree with some of you on your points. My summary:

1. Less government is always better
2. More personal responsibility
3. Guns in every household should be common like it was 100 to 200 yrs ago.
4. The 2nd amendment should be my CCW permit like AK and VT.
5. Those that carry open/conceal/illegally should take pride and responsibility and want to practice and take training even if its not from a formal certified source. THey should want to be as good as they can be with their weapon, be it; fist, knive, car, gun, bomb, etc. I don't really care.

Flame me if you want, thats my opinion and don't foresee it waivering through discussion/debate.

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Amen Brother!

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Originally Posted by KFinn

I agree with some of you on your points. My summary:

1. Less government is always better
2. More personal responsibility
3. Guns in every household should be common like it was 100 to 200 yrs ago.
4. The 2nd amendment should be my CCW permit like AK and VT.
5. Those that carry open/conceal/illegally should take pride and responsibility and want to practice and take training even if its not from a formal certified source. THey should want to be as good as they can be with their weapon, be it; fist, knive, car, gun, bomb, etc. I don't really care.

Flame me if you want, thats my opinion and don't foresee it waivering through discussion/debate.

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KFINN 2012!!!

Mr "Guns", might I suggest a reading course for you as well! I said that I do not agree with the law the way it is written. I DO beleive in the 2nd amendment, as written and therefore ANY government required training to exercise that right is fundamentally wrong. You have let your emotion cloud your logic.

What I said is based purely on training, which I beleive should all be voluntary (read above statement). I'll stick with what I wrote even though you grossly misunderstood the basic written english language.

You have two posts in this thread:

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

I provided an ink signed certificate with my NRA cert number on it, the CRS reference and the students full name. No-one has ever asked for a copy of my wallet card. Of course JeffCO has a file on me, but one would think if that was a requirement one of the 2000 or so students of mine who have JeffCO permits, (or the 3000 in other counties) would have been asked. While I do not necessarily agree with the way the law is written, the quickly growing number of irresponsible people does make me nervous. I required a 90 round shoot test after shooting about 200 at the range. Instructors who care about their students will include shooting while those who just care about making some $ as easy as possible won't. Personally, with what has been posted, I would make sure I had the copy of the cert before I went into the Sheriff. If the instructor won't give it to you, he probably is not certified.

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and:

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

Mr "Guns", might I suggest a reading course for you as well! I said that I do not agree with the law the way it is written. I DO beleive in the 2nd amendment, as written and therefore ANY government required training to exercise that right is fundamentally wrong. You have let your emotion cloud your logic.

What I said is based purely on training, which I beleive should all be voluntary (read above statement). I'll stick with what I wrote even though you grossly misunderstood the basic written english language.

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Why don't you point out to me where in this thread, prior to your second post (where you were apparently doing the backstroke as you typed), you wrote all training should be voluntary? I'll wait. If that's what you meant, that's not what you wrote. Don't blame your poor communications skills on me.

You did say you didn't "necessarily agree with the way the law is written". That could mean you think the training requirements are too lenient or too strict. Or it could also mean you agree with the law. The reader is supposed to be able to read your mind to figure out which it is?

And then your ridiculous comment about trainers not caring about their students if their curriculum doesn't include shooting is, in my opinion, indefensible. Are some people in it for the money alone? Probably. But to make such a blanket statement as you did, especially when the law doesn't require shooting and no one can prove that the requirements, as they are, are insufficient is simply asinine.

We teach a 10 hour Concealed Handgun Permit Class. We don't require shooting. We do, however, require our students to shoot 3 judgmental training scenarios on our simulator. It's basically a reactive shoot/no shoot trainer that forces them to consider all sorts of things prior to using lethal force:

• Is lethal force appropriate?
• What are the hazards other than the threat (innocents in the way, unknown backstops, etc...)?
• Do I have alternatives?
• Is there more than one threat?
• I've shot the threat...is the threat terminated?
• What do I do now that I've shot someone?

Students have anywhere from .5 second to several seconds to make a decision, sometimes under very difficult circumstances (ie: low light, confusion, distractions, etc...) just like they might face in the real world. We have over $40,000 invested in our system. We teach our classes the way we do because we DO care about the level of training our students receive.

Another thing I'd like you to back up is your statement about the "quickly growing number of irresponsible people". What irresponsible people? I'm going to assume you're talking about those applying for/obtaining carry permits. Can you show me a specific number of people were irresponsible but that number has grown "quickly" to a higher number of people? Can you provide evidence that permit holders who have obtained their permits under the current issuing scheme are less responsible than other permit holders?

Or is that statement just something you pulled outta your ass? (That's my guess but I could be wrong)

I certainly don't claim to be the ultimate authority on guns, shooting, tactics and concealed carry. There are plenty of folks out there who have forgotten more than I'll ever know on those topics.

However, I do have some experience in the field...much of it real world. And I've been teaching concealed carry classes for over 10 years with about 3,500 students taking my course. That's more than some, not as much as others. But in my opinion it's a fairly substantial number.

I've had one student (that I know of) get into some minor trouble that he was able to clear up after some court appearances and some legal fees.

But you go ahead and stand by what you wrote and blame the other guy for not understanding. It's a lot easier that way. And I'll stand behind my reading comprehension skills despite the fact you think they're lacking.

No response necessary, it's all right there in light blue and black.

Yes, it is.

When my wife has the time to take her CCW course I will strongly encourage that it be from Bailey Guns. You insight is stellar.