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  1. #1
    Trout Fear My Name Bitter Clinger's Avatar
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    Default Caliber debates about pistols are worthless

    Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.
    Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”
    He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.

    At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.
    The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.
    An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.
    Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.
    “I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.
    He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.
    Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.
    The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”
    With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.
    “He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.
    The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.
    “I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”
    Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.
    A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.
    The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.
    Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.
    Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.
    Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.
    “I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”
    In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.
    But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.
    In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.
    But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.
    The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”
    When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.
    Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.
    The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.
    Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.
    Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”
    Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.
    He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.
    At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”
    Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”
    When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.
    “Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.
    At least one alteration was emphatically practical.
    Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.
    Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.
    Paranoia?
    Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”
    http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/


  2. #2
    MODFATHER cstone's Avatar
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    “Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.”

    Being prepared and hoping it never happens.

    Be safe.
    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.

    My Feedback

  3. #3
    Machine Gunner Colorado Osprey's Avatar
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    I remember when I first was in LE in a small mountain community and my FTO (Field Training Officer) had what I thought of as loaded for war amount of ammo with him.
    I asked him about it and he stated that if you get in a fire fight, there is no air drop for more ammo and your back-up isn't gonna get there until it is already over anyway.

    Other officers gave him flack over it, but I adopted his philosophy and looked up to him for many reasons over my career.

    BTW- he also had a bug-out bag in case he had to leave the vehicle behind.... that was some serious ammo and fire power in that bag! For example there was 300 rounds of 5.56 in mags and over 20 pistol mags... for a 1911! By the time he retired he too had given up on the 1911 for a high cap smaller round pistol.

    I too started with a 1911 and changed... At one point had 17 different ones. Now I own none.
    I think the 1911 fans are an evolution. Most gun people at one time or another will own one or more because there are so many people saying the 45ACP is this that or the other. I evolved....

    Long point-- short. Shoot what you can carry and shoot accurately.. even if that is a 22lr or a 500S&W
    Last edited by Colorado Osprey; 05-06-2014 at 10:55.
    I say lets all remove the warning labels and let nature take its course.

  4. #4
    Fleeing Idaho to get IKEA Bailey Guns's Avatar
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    I've never gotten hung up on caliber but I know it's like religion to some. I'll be very happy when someone makes an IWB holster for my AR.

    That's quite a story.
    Stella - my best girl ever.
    11/04/1994 - 12/23/2010



    Don't wanna get shot by the police?
    "Stop Resisting Arrest!"


  5. #5
    Gong Shooter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bitter Clinger View Post
    Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.
    Liberals say this isn't necessary.

  6. #6
    Machine Gunner lex137's Avatar
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    Good read! I'm not an leo, but I carry an extra 7rd mag with me and my brother gives me shit all the time! I would rather have it than need it, 9mm so not much additional weight for my edc.
    "Amat Victoria Curam"- victory loves preparation

    Feedback https://www.ar-15.co/threads/50597-l...ghlight=lex137

  7. #7
    Big Panda CHA-LEE's Avatar
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    ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............

    If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner. Carrying more ammo only promotes failure to aim at the thing you are shooting at. If you are not aiming and simply basting in the general vacinity of what your are shooting at you are still going to miss your target more than hitting it. Carrying more ammo daily so you can continue to fail in executing the shooting fundamentals is a retarded strategy if you ask me. He would be better served with daily carrying a reasonable amount of ammo but instead improving his firearms training and practice to a point where he can execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation.

    Then again I am not a police officer or have any experience in being involved in a fire fight. So my thoughts on this are probably pointless.
    Last edited by CHA-LEE; 05-06-2014 at 15:14.

  8. #8
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    One reason I carry a .380 with a 15 rd mag, extra in the chamber and am getting a concealed mag pouch so I can carry an extra mag with me. All in hopes that the only time I remove my pistol from my waist is to put it in the box on my nightstand.

    Last edited by Dave; 05-06-2014 at 15:19.

  9. #9
    At least my tag is unmolested
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHA-LEE View Post
    ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............

    If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner. .... So my thoughts on this are probably pointless.
    You didn't read the quoted article did you? He got a lot of good hits. The suspect didn't stop upon getting hit in vital areas.
    Sayonara

  10. #10
    Amateur meat smoker blacklabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHA-LEE View Post
    ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............

    If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner. Carrying more ammo only promotes failure to aim at the thing you are shooting at. If you are not aiming and simply basting in the general vacinity of what your are shooting at you are still going to miss your target more than hitting it. Carrying more ammo daily so you can continue to fail in executing the shooting fundamentals is a retarded strategy if you ask me. He would be better served with daily carrying a reasonable amount of ammo but instead improving his firearms training and practice to a point where he can execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation.

    Then again I am not a police officer or have any experience in being involved in a fire fight. So my thoughts on this are probably pointless.
    Or... you have the ammunition to put to use when you do realize that you need to slow down. We generally train for center mass shots, he had 14 of them. He had a far better hit ratio than 95% of the police involved shootings that you read about. I don't fault the guy one bit.

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