Beginner long distance shooter

[Kilyung]

I've recently gotten interested in long distance shooting (out to 1000 yards) - principally target shooting (not hunting at those ranges). My shooting experience to date has been pistols and semi-auto rifle range sessions with infrequent hunting trips. Distance wise, I can reach out to 300 yds with good consistency and accuracy.

My current setup is a Remington 700 SPS AAC-SD 20" 308 barrel mounted in a Magpul Hunter 700 stock with mag well upgrade, Timney trigger, Badger 20* rail, Badger knob, Primary Arms MIL 4-14x44 FFP scope (waiting for the Vortex AMG), Atlas PSR bipod, Silencerco brake and Omega silencer, and 3000 rounds of 168gr FGMM. Rifle shoots 3/4" MOA at 100yds. Haven't felt the need to accurize it yet but that may change.

With that much brass on hand (and wanting to be more accurate), I plan to handload but I principally buy over the counter for now. A thread topic for another day.

I also do a LOT of practice on a 10/22 (KIDD trigger, VQ barrel, Magpul X22 stock) then transfer those skills to the R700. It's a slow methodical process but rather enjoyable (and conserves ammo/$). I'm trying to do it right.

I'm a big believer in backup gear especially as the long distance ranges are hours from where I live. The easy answer would be to get the exact same gun (parts interchangeability is a big bonus). However I've read that 308 ballistics beyond 600 yds perform sub-par relative calibers such as 6.5 Creedmoor.

So my question is: if I'm buying a beginner long distance rifle as a spare, should I get another 308 rifle to backup my R700? Or should I think about getting a rifle in a caliber better suited to distance shooting such as 6.5 Creedmoor? I've been looking at the Ruger Precision Rifle (enhanced) and it seems like a good value. I could buy it in 308 and use it as a backup to my R700 (or vice versa) and then (easily) upgrade the barrel to a match grade 6.5 Creedmoor when I'm ready for longer ranges (I'd also convert my R700 so as to have a spare). I would do the gunsmithing work myself. Other than a SCAR17, I don't have any other 308 investments so switching to 6.5 Creedmoor wouldn't be an issue. Or should I just stick with 308?

Apologies for the long post!

[XC700116]

OK, well take it from a guy that's been down that road, and there's quite a few accomplished LR shooters on this board that will probably chime in as well. But here's my take. It 100% depends on just how far down the rabbit hole you're planning on/willing to go. Are you looking at shooting some matches or is this just going to be for your own enjoyment? Trust me when I tell you, you'll learn far more in a single match shooting with those that are better at this game than you, than you will with thousands of rounds down range by yourself. Also going to a training course will be extremely beneficial, and we have some real good instructors in the area.

If it's just for fun/enjoyment or learning, you don't need a backup rifle and what you have now will be just fine, maybe add some upgrades down the road if you chose, and learn the rifle inside and out, and how to fix minor issues in the field.

If you see yourself going down the competition/match shooting road, skip the RPR, Savage, Trued up 700, etc and use your current rifle as a backup, you'll be money, time & energy ahead in a short time through the LR journey. Then find a reputable smith and have a rifle built for you on a high quality custom action (Bighorn, Surgeon, Impact, Defiance, etc) and have it put in a quality stock (Manners or McMillan) or chassis (AI, XLR, KRG, MPA, etc) , or go buy an AI and be done with it. That way if you ever decide to get out of it, you have something that will get a good portion of your money back, and if you decide to stay, you have something that will last a lifetime with the exception of barrels. Budget for top tier glass too (Schmidt & Bender, Kahles, Nightforce, Vortex Razor, etc) figure at least $2k. I'm not saying go out and buy this rig right now, go to a few matches, take a look at everything, and ask to get behind a few, most if not all the guys there will have no problem with this, just be respectful and explain your position, and you'll find most everybody willing to let you test drive their rifles a bit or at least sit in the drivers seat.


As for caliber, there's a reason there's a separate class in the PRS for 223/308 than everything else, the 308 is a distinct disadvantage in the wind and when you get out to longer distances (800+ yds). 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Rem, 243 Win, 6 Creedmoor, 6XC, et all are far superior performers when the targets get a long ways away, small, or the wind kicks up. Perhaps the single biggest advantage of the lighter cartridges I've listed here and you will read about on line, is recoil management. In order to learn anything from 1 shot to the next, you need to be able to see your bullet either hit the target, or where it misses the target at, the less recoil you have the easier this is to see, and thereby correct for your next shot. This is why I train/practice with a 223, that and the ammo is a lot cheaper.

There was a time when I would have recommended an RPR, or a Savage or similar rifle for those looking to get into the game a bit, but the problem is that every person I've ever met that started to dabble in this, ultimately ends up going in much deeper, and wishing for something more and thereby spending more in the long run. You are already set up with a good rifle to start down this journey with, and the above mentioned options are just another one of what you have in a different flavor. If that's where your budget/comfort level is, then just shoot that barrel out, and when it's time for a new tube, have a good smith turn a barrel for you in your cartridge of choice.

Whatever you decide/do, DO NOT GO JUMP INTO A MAGNUM!!!!!!!!!! you'll find yourself limited in your learning, developing bad habits during long shooting sessions, and just burning a pile of money in the process. Magnum cartridges have no place in the initial learning phases of this game and cause new shooters far more problems than they ever cure. There's nothing inside of 1500 yards you can do with a 300 Win Mag, that you can't do with a 243 Winchester besides deliver tons of energy on target and beat the crap out of yourself with recoil. I own a 7mm WSM and while I've shot well over 6000 rounds in the last 6 months through my precision rifles, only about 20 of them have been through the big 7 and I wasn't having a ton of fun when I was shooting it.

[Kilyung]

Thanks for the well thought out response! Gave me a lot to chew on. I'm definitely going to attend a match in the future and will also look for classes. So it sounds like I should shoot the heck out of my existing rifle then relegate it to backup duty (maybe even customize it). I looked at the cost of customs and it's not unreasonable. Going to talk to GAP, AI, SAC to start - would be great if there's a reputable shop in Colorado.

[Great-Kazoo]

Thanks for the well thought out response! Gave me a lot to chew on. I'm definitely going to attend a match in the future and will also look for classes. So it sounds like I should shoot the heck out of my existing rifle then relegate it to backup duty (maybe even customize it). I looked at the cost of customs and it's not unreasonable. Going to talk to GAP, AI, SAC to start - would be great if there's a reputable shop in Colorado.

There are a few competent smith / shops in CO that can build to spec. Before you charge out waving cash in hand. A few LD and possibly high power shoots would be advised. Get out meeting shooters who can help steer you in the right direction will be more helpful, than the internet. Plus you'll be able to get some hands on with various rigs. That's something the web can never replicate.

[XC700116]

Thanks for the well thought out response! Gave me a lot to chew on. I'm definitely going to attend a match in the future and will also look for classes. So it sounds like I should shoot the heck out of my existing rifle then relegate it to backup duty (maybe even customize it). I looked at the cost of customs and it's not unreasonable. Going to talk to GAP, AI, SAC to start - would be great if there's a reputable shop in Colorado.

There are a couple, Mile high shooting does everything from custom builds to being the largest dealer/distributor of Accuracy international in the country And awesome people to boot, Gretan Rifles is also based in CO. Also to add to your list of possibles that I would highly recommend is TS Customs out of miller, SD, Perry Custom Gun out of OK, John Beanland, and Josh Kunz of Patriot Valley Arms, the list goes on and on.

The more I'm around it, the more I'm learning chambering a great shooting barrel isn't exactly Voodoo or Rocket science. It's about being patient and methodical in your setup and machining practices. Therefore outside of guys that are known to be bad actors in the business, I'd go for the guy that provides the best customer service and can actually get me a rifle/barrel/or whatever I'm after in the time frame he quotes instead of the usual 2 more weeks like (5 times over, etc).

As for some classes, Check out Colorado Precision Rifle. Brian is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, a great teacher and a hell of a shooter. He also teaches for JP enterprises and Thunderbeast

http://cprifle.com/

[Tim K]

Shawn really went the extra mile with his response, and his thoughts are spot-on. I'll expand on one area, what to do with your current rifle.

.308 is not ideal for a beginner. Ballistics aside, a beginner is going to have a very difficult time spotting impacts in anything but a pure prone position, and will probably have difficulty there, too. I can't overemphasize Shawns point that if you don't see your bullet hit you won't learn anything about shooting in the wind.

You're in a great position since you're not loading yet and I assume you're not highly invested in gear yet. Consider ditching that .308 barrel immediately and get it rebarreled in 6.5 Creed if you don't want to reload or one of the 6's if you're willing to start loading right away. If you're not an experienced loader, I'd start shooting with 6.5 Creed and buy match ammo from Prime Ammo or the like. After 500-1,000 rounds, you'll have a good sense of how accurate your rifle is with that ammo, so you'll have a good baseline for reloading. You'll also have a nice pile of brass to get you started. A custom barrel will have the further benefit of being more accurate than the factory tube. This is especially important to new shooters because when you miss you can rule out the gun.

Follow Shawns advice and start going to some of the many local matches available. You're learning pace will be hugely accelerated. You'll find the local guys very willing to help if you just ask.

[XC700116]

And yes, by no means am I advocating running out and waving cash in a smith's nose right off the bat. Do your research go to some local matches (there's a list in the shooting sports section here) figure out what works for you and then take the plunge. I'm just saying skip the ramp up from where you're at to the top in the equipment game, or at least minimize it, as that curve is a money burner.

I would also agree with Tim's suggestion of possibly just getting a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel spun on your action. Bare minimum I'd put a VERY effective Brake on the 308 and burn up the ammo you already own. But in all honesty, I'd go the 6.5 route and sell the rest of the GMM ammo you have to one of the millions of 308 purists out there on the interwebs. You should be able to effectively swap the ammo 1 for 1 from the 308 to 6.5 and you're only switching a barrel which in the big scheme of this game is a consumable and then at the end of this journey, you also have a backup rifle that's more capable as well.

Recoil management is the single biggest reason I shoot a 6mm, and it's a baby 6mm to boot (6BRX) Yes it's got a lot of other things going for it, (accuracy, bullets with great BC, cheaper bullets, etc) but the single biggest reason is that I can spot my impacts on pretty much any shot from any position (exception is unsupported positions) from 200 yards and out. I'm not exactly a little guy either, it's not about physical size or limitations, it's about learning or at least seeing what happened on every shot. Unfortunately right now there isn't much out there for factory 6mm cartridges of match quality, fortunately though 6.5 creedmoor is, and it's a huge step in the right direction and when you boil it all down there's not a ton more to be gained in that department by going to the 6mm, but there is some.

[Calculated]

Dang XC. This should be stickied as advice for beginners. This is like a condensed version of years of money, mistakes, lessons learned and information. Good write up. Take his advice OP, you'll be well served.

Edit: I don't have experience with anything 6mm outside of 243 and still not alot there, but from what I've read the 6mm's tend to eat up barrels a little more quickly than 6.5's or 308's. A cost to consider, but he's absolutely correct about spotting your own misses, and the 6mm family excelling there. There's usually a speed limit on projectiles in matches, but it's much safer and easier to push the 6mm bullets to that limit, which means less time of flight for wind to affect the path of travel. But even if your shooting every weekend, it'll take a year to burn it out. So put a $20 in your safe every weekend and you'll have enough for a great barrel chambered by a great smith at the end of the year. Also, if you're like me and most guys shooting long range, you'll soon find it a necessity to load your own rounds. Start reading about reloading if you're competitive. And read about wind.

[XC700116]

Dang XC. This should be stickied as advice for beginners. This is like a condensed version of years of money, mistakes, lessons learned and information. Good write up. Take his advice OP, you'll be well served.

Edit: I don't have experience with anything 6mm outside of 243 and still not alot there, but from what I've read the 6mm's tend to eat up barrels a little more quickly than 6.5's or 308's. A cost to consider, but he's absolutely correct about spotting your own misses, and the 6mm family excelling there. There's usually a speed limit on projectiles in matches, but it's much safer and easier to push the 6mm bullets to that limit, which means less time of flight for wind to affect the path of travel. But even if your shooting every weekend, it'll take a year to burn it out. So put a $20 in your safe every weekend and you'll have enough for a great barrel chambered by a great smith at the end of the year. Also, if you're like me and most guys shooting long range, you'll soon find it a necessity to load your own rounds. Start reading about reloading if you're competitive. And read about wind.

On the subject of 6mm's , yes typically the barrels don't last all that long, I've completely shot out 3 different 6X47 Lapua Barrels in the last year and went about half way through another before selling the barreled action to another forum member here. That cartridge has a typical life of around 1400 rounds. There are some other options though. Hoser shoots a lot of 6mm Competition Match witch is an improved 243 Win and by virtue of it's case capacity allows both great velocity and barrel life by using a slower burning powder (H1000 in this case), pretty sure he's seeing somewhere around 3000 rounds on a barrel, I'm sure he'll chime in here at some point and can expand on that. Then there's the 6BRX which I shoot now and I expect a total round count of about 2000 rounds per barrel including break in, fire forming, and load development which should provide me with at least 1500 match quality rounds from a barrel and 6 Dasher is VERY similar.

For comparison a 260 Remington or a 6.5 Creedmoor typically last about 3000 rounds give or take.

[elsilrac1]

Agree on making this a sticky...learned a lot from the posts