Shakey Gaza Cease-Fire

[Bailey Guns]

I'm not sure the example of military members is the same.

We move heaven and earth to rescue our service members when they're in a jam and I'm OK with that. It's because we value life. Military members know that. It builds trust in the 'system' (as misguided as trusting the system may be). And I'm a bliever that makes them willing to put themselves in harm's way for reasons they may not understand.

I think a lot of the same reasons apply to retrieving our fallen. It makes it a little easier going into dangerous situations knowing your buddies, your unit and your country will do what they can to bring you home should you fall. No one wants to see the bodies of their friends, loved ones, American miltary members, etc...dead and dragged thru a town in a faraway land with the locals defiling them along the way.

It may not make sense in practical terms, but it does in human terms. I think it says a lot about who we are as a country that we do these things and that our military members willing accept these missions. Hell...we still have people trying to find/retrieve POWs and missing from Viet Nam.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Moving heaven and hell to retrieve lost comrades sends 2 messages. The first one, to your own forces, says we will not abandon you. This is why so many service members were upset by the way the Obama administration sat on its keisters and watched the Benghazi compound for 7 hours as they fought for their lives. You may not be able to get them but you can try. There's a scene in "A Bridge Too Far" that captures exactly this as the Brits look at the delays in moving their boats up the road so they can cross the river to rescue their comrades; in typical understated British fashion, one officer states "well that's it, there's nothing more we can do," to which the commander of the 101st AD says, "but try. You can do that, can't you?"

The second message sent is to your adversaries, we will not stop, we will not relent. The idea there is to tell the adversary they can not, will not wear you down. If they want an end, they need to negotiate in good faith. The latter condition will never happen with Hamas but we (Western nations) feel compelled to give them a chance to.

[eddiememphis]

Mostly unrelated to this, but it's a bit absurd to me the risks we take as a society for the recovery of a corpse.

Rituals for the dead aside, my question is, what risks are your talking about?

The diving situation you cited is comprised of volunteers or maybe local search and rescue. I don't see that as having any cost to society as a whole.

Military rescues may have some monetary cost and of course there is danger to those involved, but the cost is no higher than any other operation that involves getting shot.

Diplomatic attempt at retrieving bodies really has no societal costs either, other than possibly looking weak in the eyes of some observers.

So I don't really see any risks involved for "society". I am curious to see what risks you are thinking of.

[FoxtArt]

Normally I have and will simply disagree with you, but in this case it's clear you have no sense of morality nor have ever been in a true life and death situation.
Because if you had, it would be impossible for you to pose these questions.
In 20+ years of military service, in multiple combat zones, I can tell you the concept of "No man left behind" isnt marketing nor a standard, its a deeply held moral held by those involved.
It has reason and purpose that you clearly cant understand.
Which is fine.
So instead, you're just going to have to trust that is important to the Israelis and those involved families to get those bodies back.
And even though you cant comprehend why, it's part of the negotiations.
Because after all only Savages purposely keep and use dead hostages as bargaining chips.
Thats what you might focus on instead.

With respect, you have a narrow scenario in your mind in which the motto applies. It does not universally apply.
You also don't know who I am, or most anyone else in this forum.

As it was just said, we still have people in Vietnam finding American servicepeople. Didn't they get left behind?

There are also entire deployments of men that are left behind. Remember Bataan in the Philippines? Are we so naive as to think it can't happen again in a real global conflict? If a soldier's deployment is deemed too risky to support and there are not resources to evacuate, they are left behind. Our country makes tactical decisions like any other.

Fall off a landing ship, do they turn around to pick you up? No, it would screw up the invasion. Hopefully, someone down the line picks you up. Maybe they don't.

POW in Vietnam, did we come and get them when we were evacuating the country in '73? No, they were left behind. Some were freed shortly after, not all.

Any battle where we were force-overwhelmed, and wounded men screaming not to be left behind, did we stop the retreat and come and get them all?

Don't come back from deep recon, do they plan a whole invasion to get you back? No.



That doesn't mean we're Soviets and over here shooting our soldiers in the back, we obviously value life more. But "No man left behind" is literally untrue. Again, it's a slogan.

What's more accurate is we do try to get people back, or bodies back, when it makes sense.

Sorry I offended you by not parroting patriotic slogans. Perhaps I have family that was left behind.

As to the other responses, BG's makes a lot of sense... Higher Morale can save lives.

And again, I'm not referring to the cost of life to e.g. Hamas. As far as that is concerned, I do find it unlikely that even if they tried to fully comply with the return of bodies (which I have my doubts), would all the bodies even be available and known with as much of a shit-show as that place has turned into. Previously we rescued hostages that were in random homes mixed with the population, and IDF has even accidentally killed hostages that escaped. With all the casualties among the board, it would not be surprising if bodies are lost, can't be returned, or even 1 or 2 misidentified. One of the hostages that we previously rescued would have been tiny pieces of meat from an IDF munition if it wasn't a dud. I wouldn't be surprised if there are at least a couple more hostages that were irrecoverably destroyed by IDF itself (unintentionally).

That said, I hold no fuzzies towards Hamas, or to a peace with them. It's just dumb to create conditions that likely are impossible and return to a washing machine over the inane. If you're going to do a peace, do a workable peace. Otherwise kick ass and take names.

[BushMasterBoy]

They just arrested a Hamas member in Louisiana. The terrorist members are here in the US. Hell, they have pics!

[eddiememphis]

https://www.foxnews.com/world/israel...g-idf-response

That didn't last long...

The Israeli military conducted strikes against Hamas in Gaza after accusing the terrorist organization of repeatedly violating its ceasefire agreement on Sunday. "Earlier today, terrorists fired an anti-tank missile and gunfire toward IDF troops operating to dismantle terrorist infrastructure in the Rafah area, in southern Gaza, in accordance with the ceasefire agreement," the IDF said in a statement.

[kidicarus13]

Blame Trump! He has to somehow be involved.

[Doc45]

Ever since Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael out from his home there has been conflict in the region. There have been times when Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in relative peace with thriving communities in all of what we know today as the various countries but for the most part not. The conflict will not end now, nor in any our lifetimes.