What is the deal on a C&R license?

[BadShot]

So what is the dealio with the C&R license? Hard to get? Where to get? What's the cost - initial and renewal?

Thanks

[MuzzleFlash]

Easy to get. Get the form in .PDF from www.titleii.com. It's on legal length paper IIRC. You fill it out according to instructions and must send a courtesy copy to your CLEO (I send mine to the sheriff).

Good for 3 years, $30. Minimal paperwork. Use a bound book to record acquisitions and dispositions (available from Brownells www.brownells.com ). You CANNOT use this license to conduct a business. It is a collector's license period. There are no FP cards, no storage or alarm requirements, no posting requirements and no zoning hassles. In the extremely unlikely case where you are inspected, the law requires the ATF to give you the option of having the inspection at their offices. For obvious reasons, they generally make it a paperwork only inspection. There is very little paperwork to maintain.

The ATF maintains a list of guns you can purchase interstate on your license. I even used my C&R to transfer a Reising submachine gun. I still had to fill out the Form 4, and get it approved in the usual way, but it saved me dealer transfer fees. In many cases it can save you a $200 tax stamp sinca a C&R on a "Form 4" out-of-state can transfer directly to you.

Here's the current list of guns on the C&R list:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm
Here's all the legal stuff
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm

[Mule]

I keep my records on an Xcell file and print it out once in a while (keeping a copy in my vault).

In one case, when I get the whim to buy a big 5 C&R at lunch, I don't have to waste time doing the background check.

Also, I get a suprisingly good discount at Brownells for being a C&R. I did an order for AR parts (not C&R) that would have cost me $109. When they added the discount after me submitting the order, it ended up costing me $66. You can send in a copy of the license to all of the importers, set up accounts and get new C&Rs as they come available. Century Arms, AIM, GunsAmerica, Markov, Cruffle, ect....

Im some cases, only one of them will get a C&R in. Like AIM getting the Enfield #2A. I ordered one last week!

Another bonus is having access to parts that a normal person wouldn't. I was looking for a band on my Kar 88 (1892 build date) at Numrich. It was never in stock, untill I set up an account. Then suddenly, there it was!
Make sure you ask for FFL discounts though, otherwise, they may not set you up as a FFL dealer (as they call you). You are not a dealer, but for some reason they like to set you up as one. I can get bulk discounts from C.A.I. on C&Rs because of the way I am set up.

One thing, when you sell a C&R, you have to document who it went to....

Sorry this was so long winded. :mrgreen:

MuzzleFlash, I had no idea we could use the license for the transfer fee thing. Could you please explain how that worked in another post? You have my attention now. [postal]

[7idl]

big 5 will do a transfer w/o the extra paperwork?

wish I'd known that before!

what store do you use?

[MuzzleFlash]

...
MuzzleFlash, I had no idea we could use the license for the transfer fee thing. Could you please explain how that worked in another post? You have my attention now. [postal]

The usual way for a Title 2 gun to transfer in from out of state is to first go to a Colorado "Class 3" dealer (really a FFL+SOT). If the transferor is a FFL+SOT then this transfer is tax free. Otherwise it is $200 ($5 for AOWs).

The next transfer from the Colorado FFL+SOT to you is taxable ($200 or $5 for AOWs). If you are transfering to yourself as a natural person, you will need fingerprint cards, passport photos and a CLEO certification - typically from the Chief of Police or Sheriff. The FFL+SOT will charge you for his paperwork and time storing the item while ATF processes the paperwork.

You could end up spending $400 on transfers plus $100 on the transfer dealer's fee easily.

If the Title 2 item is listed on the C&R list (see the NFA chapter) and you have a C&R FFL, the gun can come in one interstate transfer directly to you on an approved Form 4. The FP cards, photo and CLEO certification are still required, but you can avoid the processing time of the initial transfer (and tax if applicable!) as well as the Colorado FFL+SOT's fee.

If you are a "regular" not-SOT, non-C&R FFL dealer, you can do exactly the same thing with any transferable Title 2 item your FFL covers (i.e. anything except destructive devices). Only having the SOT will exempt you from dealer to dealer tax and complying with the FP cards, Photo & CLEO cert. There is no SOT for a C&R.

Hope this helps.

[MuzzleFlash]

Sorry, more OT legal junk:

Some folks here have commented alot using a Form 1 to "make" a short rifle or shotgun. Many folks may not be aware that there is another option that does not involve placing your name and city, state info on the gun.

You can send the gun off to any licensed manufacturer (like Vector Arms in Utah, etc.) who can "make" it tax free on their license using a Form 2. In some cases, this is as simple as putting a stock on your pistol, etc. They mark it with their name according to law which is generally better if you resell the gun down the line because your name is not on it, theirs is.

They can then transfer it back to you directly across state lines on a tax-paid and approved Form 4 even though you do not have a FFL. The ATF allows you to bypass the usual transfer dealer in this case because you owned the original gun to start with. You must provide a note to that effect and include it with the form 4. I would also include any proof of original ownership. This shortcut doesn't save you on taxes (unless the item is made into an AOW), but it will save time and transfer dealer fees.

[AR Will]

Muzzleflash,

I've wanted a stocked pistol like this one.



Could I send my glock to a Manufactuer like Vector to have them do this?
What forms would I have to use?

Thanx
William

[MuzzleFlash]

That Glock is a SBR.

Here's the step-by-step if I were doing this:

• Do not under any circumstances possess the stock for your gun until you have an approved Form 4 for the SBR. Doing otherwise is felony constructive possession of an unregistered SBR. A friend who does not own a Glock can possess it for you or better yet, you can order it when you get the SBR transferred to you.
• Call Vector and talk with Ralph or Rex to see if they would register a Glock for you as a SBR and mark it. I'm assuming they will. You may have to show them this ATF letter (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm) so they understand that they can transfer it directly to you on an approved Form 4 and no transfer dealer need be involved.
• Call BATF Industry div. here in Denver and ask them to send you a few Form 4 paperwork kits (the Form 4 is also known as form 5320.4 if you run into a ditz who is unfamiliar with them). These kits will consist of duplicate F4's, duplicate FD-258 FBI fingerprint cards with ATF's routing info stamped on them, and a citizenship certification form 5330.20. The forms can also be downloaded as .pdf files and printed double sided, but the FP cards are not something to make yourself.
• I prefer to download the BATFE forms from http://www.titleii.com/Forms.htm as .pdf files. I have Adobe Acrobat so I can use it to fill out the Form 4 and even embed my photo in the document. It all looks very professional. It MUST be printed double sided to match the original form and must be submitted in duplicate. All signatures on both copies of the forms must be in original ink. By the way, I put "Personal collection, investment, and other lawful purposes" in section 15 as my "reasonable necessity".
• Mail Vector your gun and your partially completed, but unsigned Forms 4. You can fill out the description of the firearm including the original serial number and model. Also, you'll need to know the overall length with the stock attached. Note that the manufacturer on the Form 4 will become Vector, not Glock or Glock USA.
• Vector may want the stock at this point. If so, have it sent to them. As a manufacturer, they are not subject to constructive possession laws.
• After Vector does the marking and sends in their F2 to the BATFE, the gun officially becomes a SBR. They should sign and date their section on your F4's, plug in their FFL + SOT EIN info and mail them back to you. You should make sure that section 9 has "I do" circled on both copies. This allows you to call and check on the transfer status without involving Vector. Technically, the F4 is their tax return, not yours.
• Once you get the F4's back from Vector, sign and date your certification in section 15 and take them down to the Sheriff/PD to get the CLEO certification. It's also a good time to get the fingerprints done. Note the ink color required by the FBI on the FP cards. Don't assume you can ignore the instructions. They will kick them back. Don't ask me how I know. ops: The employer info they ask for pertains to the person taking the prints, not you.
• At this point, you should have the F4's signed by the CLEO, have attached the required photos, and have the FP cards and the citizenship certification filled out. You need to attach a personal check for $200 made payable to BATFE. I prefer personal checks so I can tell when they were cashed. That tells me the forms are in the system being processed at that point.
• Attach a cover letter addressed to "Dear NFA Examiner" informing them that this is your gun and the manufacturer converted it for you and is transferring it back to you. I would also attach a copy of the ATF letter (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm) in case you have a rookie examiner. Send this whole paperwork package, check and all to BATF at the Chicago address on the Form 4.
• After the form 4 is approved, ATF will send it to Vector. They'll make a copy for their records and send the original with the gun to you.

Now you can possess the stock and attach it. Since it is a SBR, you'll need permission to take it across state lines which is pretty simple to get. Also, now that the gun is a title 2 weapon, it must remain under your control at all times. The wife can't take it out on her own. You should keep the original F4 in a safe place and keep a photocopy with the weapon.

I know this seems daunting the first time through, but if you can get a CLEO signoff, it's really very simple and rather painless.

[Mule]

Let me make sure I understand the SOT part.
1) There is no tax on a C&R if brought in from out of state to me (that I knew).
BUT, if I go down the road to Big 5 and get another M91/30, I get charged SOT, unless I have an SOT #?

I have an SOT and C&R license.

In dealing w/ anything other than a C&R - which I may be getting something next year.....
2) The class 3 FFL would charge me the $200. If I have a SOT license, he doesn't charge me tax? OR is the $200 a set "tax" on the AOW and not actually a sales tax? If it really is a "sales tax" how the heck would you book that on your SOT form to the state?

3) If I find a C&R - BAR M1918A2 (not that I would have the $26k) I could have it transferred directly to me after the #4 is approved. No tax?

Or am I completely confused and need to get a cup of coffee first?

[Mule]

7
oops, forgot to reply.
Do not use the store on Iliff.
Aparrently, I was let slide by the guy on 120th and the guy on Iliff pointed that out to me one day. There is a policy w/ big 5 that they run backgrounds no matter who you are. Some of the guys know this and some don't. Take your chances I guess is what I am saying.
Greg