Lefthand Cleanup 12-30-06

[oddthomas]

I have never been to the 4x4 canyon to shoot, I always go to the one 1/4 mile up the road (make sure you go at 6am).

[WildHare]

Wallery and Dana
I think you guys are missing the point for the lefthand cleanup. The 4x4 community usually organizes 2 cleanups a year for this particular area. The area is very easy for the general public to see the trash that is left by unethical and irresponsible shooters. Those couches, tv's and refriderators are not brought up there by 4 wheelers to drive over. Irresponsible shooters bring them up, shoot the crap out of them and then leave them. Then other shooters shoot them and so on. I have 4 wheeled the lefthand/carnage canyon quite a bit in the last two years and there is in no way shape or form the same type or amount of trash left anywhere else but this area between the two trail heads. The picture that USMC88-93 posted in page 1 of this thread shows nothing of what it looks like prior to the summer clean ups. Shell casings are ankle deep thru out. As for the 4x4 trails and trash, I always bring a trash bag with me and I pick up anything and everything that I see on the trail (except the shooting area) and hardly ever fill the bag half way. I have picked up tie rods, u-joints, tail lights, cans, bottles etc. My club lives by the pack it in, pack it out rule and we do our share in keeping trails clean. If you guys don't shoot in this area, then by all means don't help clean it up. But do not compare the 4x4 community that uses this trail to the a$$hats that shoot everything up and leave it behind for others to clean up.
I know your asking why I don't pick up at the shooting area at the same time and its because the trash is over whelming and I do not have enough room to fill my jeep with trash everytime I am up there. I will save it for the organized big cleanups. BTW, the forest service is in cooperation with these cleanups and helps in providing roll off trash containers for the clubs to fill up. This particular quick clean that this thread started from is not one of the regular organized cleanups mostly because it is winter and everything is either covered by snow or frozen to/in the ground.
Sincerely
DW Thompson

[7idl]

as with ANYTHING done outdoors, the organized (4x4, CO-AR15.com guys..etc.) are NOT the problem.

There are people that partake in said events (4x4, shooting and the like, heck even outdoorsie types too) are the irresponsible idiots that are making the friggin mess.

We don't need to be caught up in the 'this group vs that group' crap that this is becoming.

just as it's not the firearms fault, it's not the <insert offroad vehicle here> fault either.

it's the friggin moron's. <period>

stop saying it's the firearms and offroad types, we don't know who it is. IF we did know who the frick it was, I'd sure as hell have them out there in shackles cleaning that crap up (after we beat the crap out of 'em) [pirate]

[Wallary]

Dear Mr Thompson, I’m sorry about the misunderstanding of my comments about this clean up thread. I was merely stating the obvious profiling going on here. You did it again when you said … the trash that is left by unethical and irresponsible [poke](shooters). Is it possible that someone other than a [poke](shooter) dumped off some of the furnisher? And how do you know they weren’t in a 4x4? I wouldn't assume anything without proof. Maybe you should say (We think the trash was brought to the shooting area by irresponsible people) I can see your view if the crap is already there everybody will probably shoot it [postal]. That doesn’t make it right! Same goes for the wheelers if you see a tire track on the side of a mountain everyone want to climb it. We all try to justify in our minds what makes it ok to do these despicable things. That’s besides to point; I’ve never been to left-hand Canyon. Correct me if I’m wrong; isn’t this a common spot for the local college kids to party? Hmmm? Now you got me assuming things! lol! Oh well enough said, I hope you have a good turn out at the next clean-up. Happy New Year!

[Marlin]

You guys Know You just wasted bandwidth, Mr. Thompson won't be back, He already has made up His mind that since We are gun owners, We are automaticly guilty of leaveing every bit of trash that is up there.

I would issue this Invitation for Mr.Thompson If Your still out there, Why don't You come to one of our shoots, Maybe We can prove to You that We aren't the scum sucking slobs That You want to believe that We are.

Do not let the actions of a few, determine Your opinion of all.

[WildHare]

Marlin, my point again is a few irresponsible parties are making it bad for all of us. It would be one thing if someone dropped off a piece of furniture and left it there. OK< then there is 1 bad, then since it is sitting there someone shoots at it and makes a bigger mess. A chair for instance left there would be 1 piece of trash. Once an AR-15 hits it and all the stuffing comes out then we have 100's of pieces of trash and you have what is pictured. It seems that the responsible people that frequent the area are the ones that clean up the mess. Not a problem. The only way to keep the areas open for all of us is to be present in numbers, express our opinions and assist the FS when we can to help our cause.
I appologize for generalizing the shooting community as I know it is only a few irresponsible people that are creating this mess, just as I know you know that there are a few bad apples in the 4x4 community as well that make things look bad for everyone. The people that belong to clubs are the ones that get put to the fire because we are the ones that are most visible. Thats why we need to be visible doing the right thing as well regardless as to whom is at fault in the first place.
Thank You,
Dean

[Flyer]

Growing up in that area, me and my brother rode our motorcycles around there in the early and mid 80's. It was not a very well known spot and it sickens me to see what it has become today. I can't even recognize the spot where these pictures were taken. I have never shot there and haven't visited the area in over 18 years but I am willing to volunteer a day to clean that ^&%$ up. Especially if dumpsters are provided. Too bad it seems it will only be temporary though due to the apparent popularity of the place by a bunch of irresponsible punks that have no ethics. Their mommas have failed them miserably. A few careless shooters, AND offroaders, AND illegal dumpers have the rest of us pointing fingers at each other. Lets quit the pissing match and get this done! :evil:

[DanaT]

Wallery and Dana
I think you guys are missing the point for the lefthand cleanup. The 4x4 community usually organizes 2 cleanups a year for this particular area. The area is very easy for the general public to see the trash that is left by unethical and irresponsible shooters.

Not really. The general public does not visit left hand/carnage canyon. Really, its people who wheel, shoot, and party. I haven't seem hardly anyone there not doing one of those three activities.

Those couches, tv's and refriderators are not brought up there by 4 wheelers to drive over. Irresponsible shooters bring them up, shoot the crap out of them and then leave them.

I would bet, as others have said, that the crap is brought up there in 4x4s or pickups. The short access road to where you are talking about is not very passable by a Honda Civic.

Then other shooters shoot them and so on. I have 4 wheeled the lefthand/carnage canyon quite a bit in the last two years and there is in no way shape or form the same type or amount of trash left anywhere else but this area between the two trail heads.

Been the "5-points" area there?

But do not compare the 4x4 community that uses this trail to the a$$hats that shoot everything up and leave it behind for others to clean up.

So you want to convince us that we take things wrong when you come here calling shooters "a$$hats"?

Did you even read my posts? As I said, I actually went to the clean-up. I DONT shoot at left hand. Its unsafe. I also have a range membership soo I don't have to. When I was at the clean-up, cleaning up after "a$$hats", I had to listen to wheelers make tons of degrogatory remarks from wheelers about shooters.

It is not my generalization that has me soured. It is first hand treatment. You also seem to think that I am anti-wheeling. Not at all. Lets put it this way, I installed (yes, by myself) an ARB in my Wrangler. That isn't anti-wheeling. I could also tell you of people I know who are very serious about wheeling. I have been in Carnage with them. I have been in Carnage.

But, let me make something else clear, if I have to pick between wheeling and shooting, I will pick shooting any day. Do I like vehicles? Yep, I sure do. Look no further than my garage.

Where I believe the problem in LH comes from with the shooting and trash, is the same people who put couches on their porches on the hill. I believe that most of the shooting and wheeling problems in that area are caused by college students from Boulder. I mean, come on, do you really think that people bring stuff up in the middle of the day in front of everyone or do you think it happens at night? How much drinking do you think goes on with all this activity.

Be realistic. If you really want to put an end to the problems at Carnage, you need to stop the abuse by the college students.

-Dana

[Marlin]

Yep calling Me an A$$Hat does not really endear Me to Your cause. Dana is right, look to the college for Who is really doing it.

As long as I/WE work at keeping "our" north and south spots clean, It really does not matter to Me if they do close LH to Both the wheeler's and shooter's. I know that the little scumbag college students won't want to haul they're crap that far. At least I hope.

[Merl]

though if we keep "their" areas open they eon't haven incentive to come to ours.


I'm curious about how acessable the area would be on the 31st though