Form 4 in Adams County?

[alucard]

I wanted to share with all of you the question this guy e-mailed me and my answers. Maybe to help clear some confusion with trusts:

Here is what he E-mailed:
Hi,

I saw your post answering some of my questions about trusts. I posted again on there with more questions, but I have some more as well?

I am trying to get a trust started, but I just want to make sure i do it the right way and everything is legal.

I want to name my dad on the trust, and possibly my mom. Is there a limit on the amount of people that can be on the trust?
I would probably just stop with the 3 of us and that would be it...really, I don't even think I would put my mom on there, but my question still remains.

As far as naming the trust, do you have to name it co-inciding with the people who will be on the trust, or are they listed somewhere else other than the actual name of the trust?

And you said revocable vs. non-revocable? What is the difference and what does each mean?

What program did you say you used, and where did you get it?

Once the trust is created with the program, what steps need to be taken to get it filed so everything is legal and no problems will be had when the paperwork is submitted to the ATF, or if you were to be checked my a LEO?

Anything else would be greatly appreicated!

Thanks,



-------Here is my reply E-mail-------
(PS I sent him an e-mail with detailed pictures of a trust)
I just sent you an email with many pictures, let me know if you got it, and you can see the pictures...

A trust is legal. You will send it to the ATF, and they will review it before giving you the $200 stamp.

I named my trust the "my name" and "my dad's name" revocable trust because I wanted our names to be on the trust.
The whole trust thing is a "gray area" in the ATF world.
But I do know that some people on silencertest.com have named their trust some funny names. Some use there online alias screen names for their trusts.

When you read the e-mail I sent you before, that is what a guy on AR-15.com had. I altered it a bit and had some more info added like a section for those who could handle the trust property. On this page I named any body who I would ever Imagine I would let borrow the suppressor overnight. Like my best friend/ dad's best friend, and what not. I don't know how well this would hold up in court, and I have not practiced this, but I put it in there none the less.

There is no limit of who you can put on the trust because there is no written documentation from ATF on how trust can be written. (I'm sure some day some one will ask about and ATF will look into the issue more and make the rules much more strict)

Some people on silencertests.com also started a corporation. And if they want a friend to borrow the suppressor, they add that person as a business member of the corp.

The trust route is easier though cause it is free, and you can move to another state and it is still valid.

revocable means that the trust can be changed. a nonrevocable trust means that it can never EVER be changed.
So for example: I bought a .308 suppressor. and put it on a trust. then months later i got a .22 suppressor. Well I just changed the revocable trust to add the new suppressor in and submitted that new trust to the ATF.
If I had a non revocable trust, I would have had to start a new trust for it seperatley.
Also with a revocable, you can change the members in it if you wanted.

I used quicken willmaker. office depot sells it, but the previous e-mail will show you what it will print out for you.

To make the trust official, you will have to go to a bank and have them notarize the document, costs like $5-10. and each time you change it, you will have to re-notarize it.
The LEO/ Sherriff will never go to your house because they don't know that you have it. Like I said before, my first can I had the LEO sign off on it. It was a pain in the butt to drive down there, drop it off, get finger printed/photo, pick it up, plus now they have record that I have a suppressor. Now I just change my trust, notary and send it off to ATF, the sheriff was never involved for my "trust" suppressors.


Let me know any other questions you have.

[sniper7]

I'll be heading over to circuit city or the like to pick up the willmaker program today!

I'm pumped!

[alucard]

I finally got around to editing my trust to take out all my personnal info, and I sent it to sniper 7.

If anyone else wants this, shoot me a PM and I will get your e-mail address.

[rtr]

Sounds like a trainwreck waiting to happen.

Doing this kind of thing without professional advice is akin to doing brain surgery on yourself.

IMO it's worth the money to pay a professional for this kind of thing.

[HunterCO]

Sounds like a trainwreck waiting to happen.

Doing this kind of thing without professional advice is akin to doing brain surgery on yourself.

IMO it's worth the money to pay a professional for this kind of thing.

Yep money well spent some will never get that though.

[sniper7]

I just compared the one I built to a guy who paid $2500 for his and mine is pretty much the same.

Don't see the point in paying a lawyer to write up something I can do on my own.

I consulted two lawyer friends and they didn't know much about them...

[alucard]

The whole thing is a gray area to begin with.
You can have as many lawyers that you want to look it over, but in the end we all know that the ATF will do what they want, when they want.
Having a lawyer look it over does not guarantee anything, It helps, but it does not guarantee .

Just like when the .22 akins accelerator was considered a bump firing device. Then some one asked the ATF to make a ruling on it. Then all the sudden, everyone that owned these once legal device, were now considered illegal. Even though it was not really a machince gun.

You are submitting these trusts to the ATF, they are looking at them, and they are approving the stamps for your trust. You got approval from the ATF for this.

The difference is, that the people who had these akins, never got an approval/Tax stamp from the ATF.

[micah360]

The ATF now requires that you send ALL of the trust documents so they can have their legal look them over before approval. Last year they just required you send the Cert. of Trust. Now you have to send the Dec. of Trust and the Property Schedule too.

On my latest stamp they contacted me because I didn't send the all of trust documents in. Once I sent them all, and they reviewed everything, I was good to go.

[rtr]

My problem with these non-professionally prepared trusts is that too many people using them may screw the rest of us eventually.

ATF has considered adding the CLEO signoff requirement to trusts and corporations. If more people abuse this part of the law (by drawing up trusts that are inadequate, or by forming corporations that have no legitimate purpose and adding their friends so that their friends can posess and use their NFA items) the ATF is MORE likely to add the CLEO signoff or do other things that are detrimental to the rest of us.

So for those of you forming a trust or corporation PLEASE consult a professional who is FAMILIAR with the NFA. One place to start is Mark Barnes, he is an attorney in DC who knows more about the NFA than anyone I know and who interacts with the ATF NFA branch regularly.

[micah360]

ATF has considered adding the CLEO signoff requirement to trusts and corporations.

Yeah... that would REALLY suck because this is the reason most of us do this route anyway!