Has anyone done this...

[Bailey Guns]

To answer the OP's question, don't know anything about Mr Hollman.

In response to some of the other comments (and to beat on a dead horse just a little...) -

This has come up several times. This is just my opinion. Personally, I'm happy to have had the training I've received over the years from military, to law enforcment to private schools and classes. There's no doubt it's made me a better shooter and better able to make decisions under stress. I always recommend that people get as much training as their means will allow and that they practice frequently.

However, it's proven day in and day out that people with minimal firearms training (sometimes none) can effectively defend themselves and others. All one needs to do is look at news accounts of defensive shootings around the country to see this is true. You don't need to be some sort of firearms ninja to defend yourself with a gun...that's the beauty of having a gun. Not only that, but look at the number of accidents involving firearms vs the number of firearms available. Sure, one accident may be one too many. But seriously...in the grand scheme of things accidents involving firearms are very low in relation to the number of guns in the hands of "the people".

Even though I continue to make a living as a firearms instructor, I'd rather see Colorado adopt an Alaska model for firearms permits. If you can legally own possess a handgun you can carry it concealed for any lawful purpose without having a permit. I like the fact that AK issues permits if desired so AK residents can carry in other parts of the country (unlike Vermont). Minimal gov't intrusion at it's finest. I am absolutey, unequivically against more government intervention and more stringent requirements in Colorado for issuance of a concealed handgun permit.

Would I feel comfortable offering this type of class? Not really. But it appears to be legal and meets the state requirements for a "handgun training class" apparently. So, I don't have any problems with it.

Let's face it. Most classes that require range time and "qualification" really aren't offering "training". Having someone stand in front of a paper target from a few yards away and shoot it 20-40 times without making someone bleed really isn't training. There's no stress, no decision making required and no feedback from the target. It just seems to make lots of people "feel" good because they actually got to pull the trigger on a gun. This type of training in no way prepares someone for a lethal force encounter, IMO.

Flame on.

[55fmj]

You are correct. This is a dead horse that will never stop being beaten. While I agree with some of your statements, I will dissagree with others. That is OK. Although, I don't think "accidents" are what we are talking about here. Like I stated earlier, all classes are different. Find yourself a good one and you will benefit. While I myself also makes a living as an instructor, I am very much in favor of less government. The less they have to do with our rights the better. I would tell anyone, do yourself a favor and get some quality training. Not only will it help you, but it will help the rest of the responsible gun owners out there. On a final note, I am really glad to hear you say that you personally would not be comfortable doing this type of class. Neither would I.

[OgenRwot]

Even though I continue to make a living as a firearms instructor, I'd rather see Colorado adopt an Alaska model for firearms permits. If you can legally own possess a handgun you can carry it concealed for any lawful purpose without having a permit. I like the fact that AK issues permits if desired so AK residents can carry in other parts of the country (unlike Vermont). Minimal gov't intrusion at it's finest. I am absolutey, unequivically against more government intervention and more stringent requirements in Colorado for issuance of a concealed handgun permit.

It's funny/amazing that you say this and I respect you a hell of a lot more because of it. Not that I didn't respect you but you get the point.

Some of the BIGGEST opposition to the Constitutional Carry Law that passed in Arizona this legislative session was coming from none other than some of the most respected firearms trainers in the state. They said this that and the other about how it's not safe, you need training etc etc. This came after they clammerd on and on about how there needs to be no restrictions on 2A over the past few years of my participation of the boards down there.

But when it came down to money being removed from their pocket they threw fits. The going rate is 40-50 bucks for a ccw class down there. You do it once a month for 25 people at 50 bucks a pop you're talking an extra 1200+ dollars a month. Do it twice, you're making 2500 extra a month. Quite a bit of extra cash to have. Now that you don't need the permit, you don't need the class. These instructors saw this coming and saw that money going right out the window so they made a HUGE deal about how unsafe it was going to be. It really pissed me off and I lost a whole bunch of respect for a lot of what seemed to be good principled guys. Money talks and they all went the way of the NRA.

[Byte Stryke]

But when it came down to money being removed from their pocket they threw fits. The going rate is 40-50 bucks for a ccw class down there. You do it once a month for 25 people at 50 bucks a pop you're talking an extra 1200+ dollars a month. Do it twice, you're making 2500 extra a month. Quite a bit of extra cash to have. Now that you don't need the permit, you don't need the class. These instructors saw this coming and saw that money going right out the window so they made a HUGE deal about how unsafe it was going to be. It really pissed me off and I lost a whole bunch of respect for a lot of what seemed to be good principled guys. Money talks and they all went the way of the NRA.

People that will sell their ethics and principles for cash...

hmm... whats the word I'm looking for here?...


I Agree with many of you. Training is a great Idea.
I would like to see all CCW holders trained with enough efficiency as to give even myself a sense of security.

That being said. I do not believe that there should be a government regulation on it.
Should it ever comes to a civil point of "he didn't have a proficiency for his firearm."
I would rather not have some bullshit blanket of "I met the state requirements.". I also dont want it to turn into another bureaucratic bullshit tax revenue.

Deep within each of us we know three things as firearms advocates.

1. where our current firearms skills are at.
2. where our firearms skill need to be.
3. where we want our firearms skills to be at.

and I honestly don't believe that any shooter worth his salt will ever say
"I am an expert and know everything there is to know."

so yeah, no govt... no taxes and I agree

I'm starting to rattle... time for more coffee

[OgenRwot]

Well, I've decided I'm ordering two of these, one for me and one for the wife. I've been shooting my whole life, taken the AZ permit course (which includes "training" 7 shots out of 10 in the "kill zone") and have shot a few competitions here and there. I know I don't need anymore classroom training and I don't need the "firearms training" you get at most CCW classes. My main goal in getting my CO CCW in cost effective manner. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Irving]

Oh, I hadn't clicked the link until now.

I didn't take an online course. I took a lecture only course at someone's house who hosted the get together.

[cowboykjohnson]

I did a lecture only class because it was cheap, and putting 10 shots on paper at 5 feet isn't training.

[Zundfolge]

The purpose of CCW training is not to make you into an effective gunfighter, the purpose of the training is to make sure you know the safety rules and the laws surrounding armed self defense so that you are both safe and legal when carrying.

The purpose of MANDATING training for CCW was so the CCW law could get past the liberals, moderates and other statists in the legislature so the law would exist in the first place.

Frankly I think the best way to handle it would be like your drivers license. You don't have to go to an expensive driving school to get your license, you just have to pass a multiple choice written test (for which you are provided a workbook to help you prepare). Maybe for your first CCW you should have to shoot a qualifying (the equivalent of the in-car drivers' test) but once you have your permit all you should have to do is demonstrate your understanding of the 4 safety rules and the legal ins and outs of carrying (what weapons can be carried, where you can carry, when lethal force is justified, etc).


It seems to me the added expense of a training course smacks me of the root of all gun control laws; keeping "undesirables" (ie: poor and non white) from obtaining a license to carry.

[OneGuy67]

The purpose of CCW training is not to make you into an effective gunfighter, the purpose of the training is to make sure you know the safety rules and the laws surrounding armed self defense so that you are both safe and legal when carrying.

Frankly I think the best way to handle it would be like your drivers license. You don't have to go to an expensive driving school to get your license, you just have to pass a multiple choice written test (for which you are provided a workbook to help you prepare). Maybe for your first CCW you should have to shoot a qualifying (the equivalent of the in-car drivers' test) but once you have your permit all you should have to do is demonstrate your understanding of the 4 safety rules and the legal ins and outs of carrying (what weapons can be carried, where you can carry, when lethal force is justified, etc).

The laws have changed for the driver's license requirements here in Colorado. Not speaking directly for a state-to-state transfer, but new drivers:

To be issued a Minor Driver's License (ages 16 - 20) you must meet the following requirements:

• Must hold instruction permit for 12 months (if under 18)
• Must be at least 16 years old
• Present a completed and signed Drive Time Log (if under 18)
• License will expire 20 days after your 21st birthday
• A 6-hour Behind the Wheel (BTW) certificate is required, upon application for the license, for minors who obtain their instruction permit under the age of 16 years 6 months years. Exception: 12 hours of behind the wheel training may be administered by a parent, guardian or alternate permit supervisor if there is no approved school offering at least 20 hours of driver education per week located within 30 miles of the permit holders residence.
• Pass a drive test with either a third-party tester or at a Driver's License office. *Drive Tests at Driver's License offices are by appointment only*

Every applicant under 18 years of age must submit an 'Affidavit of Liability and Guardianship' DR2460 signed by a parent, stepparent, guardian or grandparent with Power of Attorney. The DR 2460 must be verified by either a Driver's License employee or a Notary Public. If the signer is a guardian, original court documents showing guardianship, custody or adoption must be presented. If the signer is a grandparent with Power of Attorney (POA), the original POA must be presented and a copy of the POA must be surrendered upon application for the permit. If neither parent is living, the legal guardian of the minor may sign the affidavit. In this case, court-ordered guardianship papers are required. The affidavit may be obtained at any Motor Vehicle Driver License Office, from the back of the Driver License manual or downloaded above.

It seems to me that it is easier to obtain a CCW in Colorado than it is to get a driver's license. That is a little disconcerting to me.

[Bongo Boy]

What's most intriguing about the whole thing is that no human intervention, anywhere in the process, would be required. If the State set up the same test on a web site, required sufficient personal information, they could:

a) administer the test automatically (as Hollman could presumably do)
b) score the test automatically, by machine
c) look you up in...the system...and presumably find you and your photo on file
d) perform the investigations, etc., needed
e) collect the payment/fees online, then
f) approve you for, print out and mail you your license

with the only possible human intervention being to pull the id card from the printer and stuff the envelope and maybe do a random spot check on the overall process. While that part could also be automated, it would probably cost far more than it's worth for the small market.

This might freak out the Brady Bunch and their ilk, but it sure would streamline things.